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Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 03, 2020 01:48PM
I have a Cibola that I purchased used last year. In my test garden it would not sound off on a 6" deep silver dime with the stock 9" coil. I performed the ground balance mod, and the GB process works as it should, but it still will not sound off on the 6" dime. I super-tuned it via Keith Southern's video, and it still will not sound off on the 6" dime. Over the weekend I want to play around with it some more and thought I might try some air tests with different batteries. I get 6 beeps when I turn the machine on, using Rayovac batts from Lowes, but I wonder if another brand might serve me better.

I'm also pondering on digging up that dime. It's been in the ground a few years now, but I'm wondering if it has settled on edge or something. I may go ahead and make a new test garden.

Other machines will hit it,, MXT,, T2

Any other ideas?

Second question,,,,,, when ground balancing for air tests,, should I center the 10 turn ground balance pot 5 turns from either direction?

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Most detectors use a voltage regulator so what is needed
Posted by: vlad
Date: January 04, 2020 11:01AM
is less than the total battery voltage. If it beeps 6X when turned on I doubt its a battery variance (but Ray-O-Vac have leaked more than any batteries I've used.)
(Check this thread on batteries, https://www.findmall.com/read.php?18,2509769,2510522#msg-2510522 ) And you might query Monte on the Cibola depth.)
One thing to consider is ground mineral vs frequency; at some point higher frequencies are less efficient as the mineral increases.
I took along a Tesoro TID unit (10" open center) years back to an old park and checked the signals I got from my CZ. One high coins category at 7" I could not hit, no
matter how I tuned the Tesoro, and my CZ would easily hit about 5" above the ground--the recovered target was a silver quarter.
(Back in the '70's a friend using a Deepseeker had me check a signal with my Super Pro; I could not hit it in disc, or in VLF. Difference between a regular TR disc. vs an Off-Resonance discriminator.
It was a sterling mouth piece for a trumpet at 7-8.)
Rather than dig up the target, try probing for it: you can easily tell whether its flat or not.

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Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: thump7
Date: January 04, 2020 04:42PM
I agree with vlad, your batteries should be good. I’ve used them as low as one or two beeps with little or no noticeable issues in a Vaquero I owned a number of years ago. The Cibola shouldn’t have an issue with that 6” dime. It might not hurt to double check that the disc is below tabs.. that would be about all I could think of for why it wouldn’t hit it. It’s the coil connection tight?
Centering the GB should work well enough.
I’m curious, do you get a threshold response in All-metal on it?

Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 04, 2020 06:57PM
Did some air testing this afternoon and established that I have definitely been swinging too slow. Got plenty deep when swinging coins past the coil very briskly,,, but not deep at all with a typical slow, methodical speed.

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Sweep speed is important---more so on some units.
Posted by: vlad
Date: January 04, 2020 09:14PM
I went from a Tek 9000A to a Mk-1, and carried over the fast sweep, I got little depth till I slowed it down.
And from a CZ to a C$--swinging the C$, CZ slow, I lost depth till I speeded it up (and discrimination improved). Go figure, :nerd:
(Some detector programs today vary the speed by using a chip--different world.) :biggrin:

Cibola issues on a long-buried silver dime at 6".
Posted by: Monte
Date: January 09, 2020 12:48PM
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GA1dad
Did some air testing this afternoon and established that I have definitely been swinging too slow.
Possibly, what that depends on what your definition is of 'too slow.' It's possible, but I'd say that wasn't the reason for poor performance and not getting a good-target response from a 6" silver dime. Tesoro's are designed with what was generally described as a 2-Filter or Double-Derivative type circuitry, and at the time of their introduction in July of '83 of their first popular motion-Disc. model, the Inca, there was really only one other comparable model on the market from Fisher, introduced the year before. Almost all other motion-based Discriminators used what was referred to as a 4-Filter circuitry. The main differences were that a 4-Filter design, such as a White's 6000 or XLT or the Teknetics 8500 or 9000 for example, used a fast-motion circuitry..

Those required a very brisk sweep speed to a moderate to faster sweep by the time of the XLT. They handled higher mineralization better but needed a fast sweep speed. They were usually heavier detectors and the required fast sweep was also very fatiguing. Then along came the 2-Filter types, like your Cibola, and by-design they needed to use a slower sweep speed. By 'slower' I mean they could better process the target signal and provide a quicker-response and faster recovery time, and achieve that performance at a slower sweep. Why" Because due to the circuitry design, if you sweep a coil too quickly, you will force in more ground signal and the detector can't process out the ground signal to pass along the target signal. It needs that slower sweep to allow the processing time to handle the ground mineral signal first.

The more mineralized the ground, the more important it is to use a slow-and-methodical sweep speed. If the ground is a mix of black sand or pea gravel or small rocks, that makes it all the more difficult for a 2-Filter type detector to handle it easily. And by slowly and methodically, I do not mean a sluggish crawl of the search coil. Just a comfortable slow-motion sweep of about 2 seconds for a complete left-to-right sweep, and then 2 more seconds to sweep back the other way, going about 3' to 4' each direction.


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GA1dad
Got plenty deep when swinging coins past the coil very briskly,,, but not deep at all with a typical slow, methodical speed.
In an "air test" with the Tesoro or most of the makes and models in use today that use a pretty quick auto-retune speed, you will almost always notice an increase in "air depth" as the sample target is moved past the coil's center axis with a faster sweeping motion . However, all the detector is doing with the search coil stationary is responding to the accepted metal target sample, but it isn't also being fed a ground signal to have to filter out.

If you have other detectors that do get the buried silver dime, such as your Tek. T2 (an interesting filtering system) and White's MXT (which has a 3-Filter circuitry design which does allow a brisker sweep speed) using comparable settings then there are other considerations, such as:

• The search coil size and type used on all models
• Detector control settings.

I noticed you mentioned you have a Cibola that:

► "I have a Cibola that I purchased used last year."... A good general purpose model, so that's good if properly calibrated (aka GB'ed)

► "I performed the ground balance mod, and the GB process works as it should, but it still will not sound off on the 6" dime".... So, you did the Ground Balance modification on the Cibola yourself, or did it come already modified?

• And you're sure it works Okay?

• Did you check the modification in both the Threshold-based All Metal mode as well as the silent-search Discriminate mode?

• Did you double check the GB setting in the Discriminate mode?

• Do you have a too-positive GB setting? That can cause some high-conductive target loss if mis-adjusted.


► "I super-tuned it via Keith Southern's video, and it still will not sound off on the 6" dime." ... I haven't watched Keith's video but I have seen others, and one guy with a Vaquero does things different that can effect performance. A few years before Tesoro started using the term 'Super-Tuning' I was using and showing that method which I had named 'Hyper-Tuning' simply because it was enhancing the received signal from weak to on-the-edge and louder. I always run a Tesoro w/ED-120 Disc at the minimum Disc. setting. With the Cibola and Vaquero, which use an ED-165ish Disc. circuitry, I generally increase the Discrimination to just barely reject common iron nails. I also run the Sensitivity level as high as possible w/o static / noise. I keep it at maximum or reduce it, if necessary, just to the point where I gain stability.

In the All Metal or Pinpoint mode I make sure I have the Threshold level set for a 'proper' slight audio hum. Then, if I want to 'Hyper-Tune' the unit, I increase the Threshold to maximum of as close to full Threshold loudness as possible. That's basically going to increase and saturate the audio response from weaker, deeper targets , but can also saturate 'noise' and at times it can get a little bothersome. It was helpful, at times, when Coin Hunting cleaner areas with deeper-located targets. Not really helpful on shallow to typical-depth targets, and it also makes the Pinpoint function useless.

To be honest, and I have been using Tesoro's all the time, along with my other detector outfit, since July of '83., I hardly ever use any Hyper-Tuning or 'Super-Tuning' because it really isn't needed with the more powerful models compared with their earlier models that were definitely wimpier. My Bandido II µMAX and the Silver Sabre µMAX, as well as Cibola and Vaquero are all some of the better performance models that Tesoro ever made. So, if it is a silver dime laying relatively flat-to-the-coil, I wouldn't bother digging it up. If your MXT and T2 are hitting it well, but the modified Cibola isn't ... then the problem lies elsewhere. Possibly in the circuitry or, quite possibly, in the modification or tuning procedure.


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GA1dad
Second question,,,,,, when ground balancing for air tests,, should I center the 10 turn ground balance pot 5 turns from either direction?
No. For one thing, the best setting is going to be one that would otherwise be in harmony with the ground mineral environment you plan to search it. Also, you want to make sure that your Ground Balance modification was done so as not to mess up the manual GB effect on the silent-search Discriminate mode. That is where I have seen some cases of folks doing a GB modification to a pre-set GB unit and things have gone wrong.

Do you still have the internal GB trimmer on the circuit board, or did you remove it when you did the mod.? If you have a chance, and I'm up all sorts of hours, give me a call and I'd be glad to discuss the performance with you. Contact number is in my signature below.

Monte



"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Nokta / Makro: FORS CoRe, FORS Relic, Racer 2 and Simplex + also using Makro and Pulse-Dive Pinpointers
Tesoro: Bandido II µMAX and Silver Sabre µMAX ... White's: modified IDX Pro ... XP: ORX ... Fisher: F44
Headphones: Killer B's 'Hornet' and 'Wasp' -- Detector Pro Gray Ghost XP
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand. Models are chosen based on search site conditions.
*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***


Re: Cibola issues on a long-buried silver dime at 6".
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 09, 2020 02:05PM
Thanks Monte,

Yeah,, I did the mod myself. The surface mounted trimmer was removed for the mod.

I'm fairly confident the GB mod is working properly. Based solely on the fact that I can adjust it for silent, too negative and too positive. When I swap over to discriminate mode the GB is still set pretty darned close, and minor adjustments can make it too negative or positive with fast, shallow pumps of the coil.

The T2 will hit it with the stock coil, but not the 5" with settings of 85-21-2+. The MXT will hit it with the 8X6 Detech coil, and the 950 with everything set at the factor recommended settings ( arrow marks),, but not with any other coils. The Compadre will not hit it at all. My Delta 4000 would not hit it at all. The Ace 250 would not hit it at all.

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Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: Sven
Date: January 10, 2020 04:31AM
I had a number of Cibolas in the past, some are hot and some are cold. About 1 1/2" difference.



Nokta/Makro--Cruze'n with the Simplex for 2020
DeepTech Vista X, and maybe a few others
Self built Mirage Pi --- works great in trashy areas!!

Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 10, 2020 10:33AM
I got the Cibola out and played with it some more yesterday. I was able to find a setting that would hit the 6" dime from one direction,,, but barely. But that was only with me standing over the coin swinging,,, not when I was casually walking over the target. And with that setting the machine was too unstable to be used.

While I was at it, I grabbed the T2 with the new/used Sharpshooter coil and found it would hit the dime reliably with that coil and 1 or 2 tones. At least it sounded good enough that I would have stopped to investigate the tone.

Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 11, 2020 06:52PM
Ya know,,, I try to love this machine,,, I really do. But with the depth issues I'm having I just can't love it.

Soooo,,,,,, I try to hate this machine,,, I really do. But,, then I use it and I just can't hate it either.


I don't give up easy. I try to put in the hours, so to say. Yesterday I had time for a quick hunt after work, so I headed to my most hunted spot. The 150 ft by 150 ft hill top that is full of tiny bits of roofing tin. I suppose I've hunted it 30 times or so. And once again, it gave up a few dig-able targets, including an interesting old, flattened button with a flower pattern around it. Not much, but I consider the easy targets all hunted out at this spot and all that is left is masked,, terribly.

It's hard to hate a machine that will sniff out targets in the trash.




Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: Dig-a-holic
Date: January 11, 2020 07:23PM
I have seen where 2 guys posted elsewhere that there Nox's could not hit a 6-8" dime because of his soil. I get good depth with all my machines because my soil is loose and sandy. Might be different if red clay or just hard.

Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: gwsears
Date: January 16, 2020 12:28PM
Are you in red clay or sandy soil?

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Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: January 17, 2020 12:46PM
Sorry if I missed it, but did you turn your GB negative at all?
Before j did my cibola mod I tested the GB by pumping in all metal and it was negative from factory in my mild soil.
Many will 1/4 turn negative for depth. That's on a 3 3/4 turn. If you used the Bourne's 10 turn pot, that's about 3/4 turn on a 10 turn to do the same as a 1/4 turn on a tesoro 3 3/4 turn.
You said you hit the dime before the mod? That tells me either something went wrong with the mod (hopefully not) or the internal pot was set negative or maybe positive in your soil from factory so you'll need to go negative or positive on your new pot to achieve same results.
If the mod went well then there's no reason you can't recreate how the machine acted before, as long as you used proper pot and everything



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD, 7" concentric

:tesoro: Black Tejon 9X8
:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, Lesche digger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2020 12:48PM by Stoof-tabsallday.

Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: GA1dad
Date: January 17, 2020 01:47PM
Quote
Dig-a-holic
Might be different if red clay or just hard.

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gwsears
Are you in red clay or sandy soil?

Hmm,, now that is a thought,, it is mostly clay around here. Will have to study up on that some more. Thanks



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Stoof-tabsallday
Sorry if I missed it, but did you turn your GB negative at all?

You said you hit the dime before the mod?

Yeah, I do turn it negative,, and have played with different percentages of turns on the ten turn trying to find a happy place.

Nope, you mis-read it,, it has never hit the 6" dime,, before or after the mod.

Thanks for taking the time to reply

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Re: Cibola- depth related to battery power?
Posted by: Stoof-tabsallday
Date: January 17, 2020 01:58PM
Quote
GA1dad
Quote
Dig-a-holic
Might be different if red clay or just hard.

Quote
gwsears
Are you in red clay or sandy soil?

Hmm,, now that is a thought,, it is mostly clay around here. Will have to study up on that some more. Thanks



Quote
Stoof-tabsallday
Sorry if I missed it, but did you turn your GB negative at all?

You said you hit the dime before the mod?

Yeah, I do turn it negative,, and have played with different percentages of turns on the ten turn trying to find a happy place.

Nope, you mis-read it,, it has never hit the 6" dime,, before or after the mod.

Thanks for taking the time to reply
Ahh ok. I see now sorry I misread.
Well if you have alot of clay there and bad ground I can see it hindering the depth.
Sorry I can't help with that. I have pretty mild ground here



Stefan (Michigan)

Nokta Fors Relic 7x11", 5.5x10"DD, 5", 5.5x10 Concentric


Makro Racer 2 - 7x11", 5.5x10", 5" DD, 7" concentric

:tesoro: Black Tejon 9X8
:tesoro: Mojave
:tesoro: Deleon - Troy shadow super 7",
:tesoro: Compadre 8
:tesoro: Compadre 5.75
:tesoro: Bandido II Micromax
:tesoro: Outlaw
:tesoro: Cibola- GB/all metal toggle mod
:tesoro: Vaquero
:tesoro: Cutlass Micromax 8

Lots of coils

*Not listed in any special order*

Tools:
Garrett carrot, lesche shovel, Killer B Wasps, Lesche digger